In one of our team threads a conversation around rate of fire was starting to perculate.
Given new game formats that are comming on the scene in 08 that emphasize tactics, for example Command Decisions Platoon Leader rule set, and Gold Digger's recent change in field policy limiting markers to semi-auto only the issue of rate of fire seems to be heating up again.
This has been a long running discussion in paintball since the advent of the first electropnuematics like the Angel, which had a major impact on the way the game was played.
I personally can't afford to run a gun on full-auto. To follow that up, most guns in real life aren't designed to be run at full-auto either. To my knowledge, most are designed around a single shot or three-round burst.
Hey ninerref, as a historical note the M-16 was first designed as a semi-auto and full automatic weapon. The reason they instituted 3 round burst was to force Soldiers/Marines to take well aimed shot's versus spraying and praying.
I'm not sure if the Ak-47/74 variants come in 3-round burst. I dont think so.
The point is the same arguments are at play...vollume vs well placed shots.
Runaway your comments are in the right place...
"But well placed, evenly timed single shots on a target from multiple angles are just as effective as has full auto from multiple angle and it saves paint."
When I first started playing in speedball tournaments we use to walk the field to try and find the "angles", those places on the field where you could get flanking shot's into critical bunkers and areas of the field. The game was based on quick, aggressive movements to these spots in order to controll the field. Move to shoot.
As the ROF began to come up, movement became more and more difficult, so teams began to rely on vollume of fire in order to get eliminations. The object being to create opportunities to move by attriting the other team. Shoot to move.
This mentality has moved into woodsball as well. How many times do you see a group of players just sitting and shooting hoping to get an elimination? In most cases they are out range or not even in a good position to shoot.
Of course, the high ROF makes it easier for players to attempt to walk their rounds in and then just rain paint.. The problem is, if you dont have the "angle" or a good shot it's all a waste of time unless you are purposely providing covering fire... which most people don't know how to do.
Runaway is right about finding the angles, in the military we call this flanking.
To work, one player/group must fix the enemy with suppresive fire, preventing the enemy from moving or taking aimed shots. While a second player/group moves to the Flank/ angle for an elimination shot or to force the other side to withdraw from their current position.
The advantage of this approach is that it encourages movement on the field rather than stalemate. This is a tactical technique we will focus on in our Training Days.
Okay, so we have our first game of the 08 season at Gold Diggers on January 26th, but wait a minute!
The field owner has a new rule, semi-automatic only!. One pull of the trigger, one shot.
No full auto, no ramping (PSP, NXL, Turbo modes out!), got a Response Trigger? Dial it down to 10 BPS (balls per second)...
I remember when the Angel came out, the first time I went up against an Angel (I was shooiting a MicroMag) I was like whoooaaa dude, OUTRAGEOUS!.... at the time. at well over $1000.00 the Angel was out of my reach so my first electro was a Brass Eagle Rainmaker (does anyone remember those).
I eventually upgraded to an Automag RT in order to keep up in the ROF game, which is the same premise as the Tippman response Trigger.... I was sucked into the cult of high rate of fire!
I remember the raging arguments about how this was going to kill the game (yeah that argument was dead wrong). Today even Spiders and other stacked tube, spring/bolt driven markers can get up near 20 bps (balls per second)....
At first, rate of fire was limited by the hoppers available, the View Loader Revolution maxed out at what 14-15 bps? So even though my RT could (theorectically) get to 30 bps there was no practical way to get there with the gravity fed hoppers of the day... Then came the force feeding loaders, first there was the Warp Feed from ADG (makers of the Automag), and then there came the others Halo, Q-Loader, Reloader et al. These things feed over 20 BPS...
But the argument continued to rage, so much so that many of the major tournament circuits put in ROF limits. I believe both the PSP, NXL, and CFOA cap at 15 bps.
So the question is, how does ROF impact the game. specifically woodsball/scenario play (since that is the primary focus of our team)?
I am of 2 minds on this subject.... For everyone who has ever been bonus balled you know what it is like to be on the wrong end of this issue. Howver, most times I do not believe it is purposefull.
I know for myself, in the heat of battle you can very easily put a hail storm of paint in the air before you know it with a high end electropnuematic marker.
Even, with my Tippman E-grip, I can throw crazy paint easily. At Distant Thunder, I was involved in a situation that was discussed on Carolinas Paintballers. I was in the fort when Severe of the Rats charged the entrance, I shot him with 2 or 3 shots, but he kept his marker in the air as if he was continuing to shoot at me so I pulled the trigger several more times. Guesse what, with my grip set in PSP ramping mode, the marker went full auto and put another 10 to 15 rounds into him.
He was quite upset (and so was I, why did he continue to shoot after the first 3 rounds I put into him?).
Well in the after action it turns out that when I caught him in the open he just froze in place after the first few shots, he wasn't shooting but the incomming fire from his teammates and the fact that his marker was still parrallel to the ground (pointed in my direction) made it seem like he was still shooting at me.
Now I only pulled the trigger 2 or three more times after the first three shots, but because my gun went into ramping mode he got a stream of paint for his troubles.
Everything went down in a few seconds.
Ultimately, we both aggreed the that the incident was an accident with no ill intent, but had I been shooting on semi-auto maybe he takes only 5 shots as opposed to 15 or 20, with the exact same trigger pulls on my part.
When incidents like that occur, regardless of what end of the gun I'm on, I get to feeling like I should break out my Phantom and just go old school.
But then I break out my Phantom, and some 12 year old with a DM7 lights me up and is like "get off the field man, you're out dude!"
And I'm hitting the car to break out my Tippman E-grip or even worse my Etek Ego with Virtue board upgrade!
The bottomline is that markers today are made to be shot fast! When I was shooting autocockers you had to practice you're trigger pull just to get over 10bs! and even then it was hard to maintain that rate of fire for more than a few seconds. Automags? Before the RT, you'd suffer shoot down where the valve was unable to recharge fast enough to keep velocity consistent. There were real physical limitations which reduced the likelyhood of overshooting.
Fire any electropnuematic in PSP ramping mode... three pulls of the trigger at greater than 5 bps and the gun goes full auto at 15 bps. The gun does not reset to semi-auto unless you release the trigger and do not shoot for 1 second... Also, the triggers are now so light, that on some guns they have to programm down the sensitivty of the trigger so that small bounces or jars wont cause the gun to fire.
In the early 90's, when semi-autos were first really taking over paintball, only the very best players could hit and maintain rates of fire above 10 bps and their guns where heavily modded to achieve that kind of substained rate of fire... Today, my 3 year old daughter can pick up my Ego, pull the trigger a few times and wheeewwwwww, off she goes, 15 balls a second.
Now when you combine hardcore players with new or casual rental players, the discrepancy in technology and ability really becomes pronounced.
When I first started playing (with pumps) the skill/technology differential between players ment that as a new or rental player going up against a really good hardcore player your major frustration was that that guy (guy or girl) could take you out fast with a few well place shots..
Now, what used to be pop, pop, pop, "I'm out"... has become Buuurrrrrrrrrppppp, "@@@##$ man, I'm out, I'm out, I'm out! Are you F%%$ crazy, stupid or both!". With the corresponding retort from the shooter and complaints to the reffing staff.
In an environment like Gold Diggers, where even the scenario games involves a mixed crowd of new, casual, and experienced players this can be a problem for the field owner who is trying to run and grow their business.
Now when you go to a Camp Blanding or Fulda Gap where the vast majority of players are experienced players who are generally affiliated with a team, then it's game on brother! Since the technology and skill differential is smaller, I say let it rip. But even there you get the complaints.
Finally, there is the argument of skill vs firepower, which has some merits. But regardless of rate of fire you still have to aim and hit what you are shooting at or else you are just enriching the paintball manufacturer's for little gain.
It's just when the skill and the technology combines to a point where 5 trigger pulls in under 5 seconds results in 30 to 40 balls in the air and on target against some guy with a rental custom 98, shooting CO2 in the dead of winter... I'd be cussing you out to (whether I thought you ment to do it or not)!
So I support the new Gold Digger's policy. I think if some players embrace it they may find the game is more fun at below 10 bps. Heck, I may even break out the Phantom!
Great thread guyz, Well it my turn...I basically play paintball the way I was trained in military (I know it's different but bare with me), I was taught to avoid the use of the automatic option even to suppress. If you've ever been around me when I'm leading troops, you may have heard me say "slow down your rate of fire." I will normally try to use two or more people to hold down a target. This way you can save paint and spread the use of paint out among the troops. In real combat running out of ammo on the battlefield is a death sentence, as are your hopes for victory on the paintball field. This I believe will be made apparent during these new game formats.
This statement many be misplaced, should be made in the tactics thread:
"But well placed, evenly timed single shots on a target from multiple angles are just as effective as has full auto from multiple angle and it saves paint."
As a side note, some of you may has seen me run around with my little cheapy green Walmart Sypder, single shot with a stock MR1 barrel, which by the way has given me the most eliminations. And with that marker I know that I have to make my shots count, that I can't afford to get into a shootout with anyone, the stealth is what the most important and it changes the way you approach the game. Another point of fact is I was able to move without a weapon through out a whole day, I was in and around fire fights all day and was never hit. So I for one think that I will do well under these new rules. Just my thoughts!
Last Edit: Dec 31, 2007 12:57:55 GMT -5 by "Runaway"
I am with you on the semi mode of play. I favor semi mode and promote it. I do run an RT on my 98C but rarely ever use it. Both Werewolf of Rogue Cell and I are this way. My best addtion to the 98 C has been the Apex Barrel. Many of us on Recon-1 use the Apex as we are hitting targets from extreme ranges and the paint is breaking. on the target. The Apex has really made our kill zone larger. Most full auto shooters cannot last an entire day of scenario play as they are out of paint 1/2 to 3/4 into the game. Our players tend to last up to the very end. We encourage and practice flanking movements, fire and movement. covering fire and movement style tactics which will always win against even your full auto and Angel players/units as they tend to stay stationary. Our squads usually easily outflank them and take them out rather quickly.
I think most fields will go to the semi-rule as the full auto and ramping players have taken the fun out of the game for the walk-ons and those not in a scenario paintball unit.
I knew they were originally designed that way, I just no more emphasis is placed on the 3-shot and single shot style due to the need for controlled aim. That is also evident even today with all the foreign wars that the US is current;y involved in. The combination of training and better aim due to not using full-auto shows in the ratio of US Soldiers KIA to their counterparts fighting against them.
Post by M.A.D. Reaper on Dec 31, 2007 18:58:39 GMT -5
Yea i'm with Runaway and the Hun, i dont like Full-Auto and that's one of the reason my son quit playing this game. Over shooting on a 10yr boy or girl kills the fun of it for them and the less-likelyhood that they will return to the game as they only remember the pain of the hits. There is no skill on holding down a trigger and spraying only hoping that one ball hits the target. I've been playing this game for 3 1/2 years and i still don't feel the need to get a trigger. I have went up against full auto's head to head and sometimes i win and sometimes i don't. Thirty balls coming at you doesn't mean they all hit you. Some of them will start to wing out after 40 or 50 feet in my experiance. I stay with my finger and accuracey and a tight budget. Tactics and Team work are far more superior than spray and pray.
Post by MrGoodbody on Jan 16, 2008 16:41:28 GMT -5
Nice subject, I favor semi-auto for one I like the fact of sneaking up on someone and get them out with a single shot, That ish right there all way gets your heart going.
Of course, throwin 20-30 bps can get ya there too. Reaper remembers, when I played back in the day when b.e.l wasn't known I was running around with my A-5 or my Cus 98 and I 'd do my thing sometime but my win to lose ratio was beginning to upset me. I immediately realized the problem and it was that I was getting over powered by the oppositions rate of fire and I knew I had to change it up on'em and get a response trigger.
I try to continue to hone my skills, the certain trainings learned in the military something I'm sure we all do in someway or another, but, basically I had to adapt to the game. With that said I have know problem with going semi, and I think it should be up to the fields discretion. Someone questioned the selector on the AK-47/74 and they are fully automatic, which in regards to milsim games I believe we should be able to achieve those high rates of fire. So yeah.... there's going to be some discussions.
In regards to the overshooting that goes on, as much as I have played I've seen some over shooting but like someone said it's usually from being the heat of battle....consequences of the latest in paintball technologies.
I favor semi-auto modes but I have used both full auto and 3 round bursts on my SP-8. I turned off the full auto because I found myself overshooting the crap out of just about everyone I shot at that day. It was fun using the full auto, but taking the risk of making players made wasn't worth it.
Post by MrGoodbody on Mar 20, 2008 19:40:13 GMT -5
To continue this thread I'd like to comment on the great difference in the milsim world of paintball.
Big change for one, you must have a milsim marker, but the great difference is ammo discipline which makes up check your rates of fire. If your attacking a bunker with a 40 round tac-hopper, your gonna make sure your shots are well placed.
It also forces you when In a situation like that to use teamwork, when you go down to reload your battle buddy is there to keep there heads down until your back up again.
For those that have a problem ramping, I would encourage you to play with a tac cap and watch as it lightens the heaviness in that trigger finger of yours. Out.
Last Edit: Mar 20, 2008 19:42:17 GMT -5 by MrGoodbody